Re: Why begin teaching Gemara in elementary-school grades?
Welcome! Log In Create A New Profile

Advanced

Re: Why begin teaching Gemara in elementary-school grades?

November 18, 2010 11:41PM
Thank you to my teacher and friend Rav Yissie for his thoughtful response.

I think that there is a substantial difference between the effectiveness of tanach study in elementary school as opposed to gemara. It is realistic for a student to graduate eighth grade knowing the story of Chumash, the basic contents of each parsha, most of navi, the megilot, etc. Students can't even learn the basic Pshat of a single masechet of Gemara at that age. I think students memorize better at a younger age, and analyze better at an older age. While a post HS student can analyze tanach well, they can't memorize as well. Most of us will never know melachim as well as bereshit because we learned bereshit earlier. I think Gemara, which requires a higher proportion of analytical thinking to achieve any comprehension, is better suited to older students. Tanach, which benefits from analytical thinking but can be understood at a basic level with a simple read through, benefits from being taught young and revisited when the student matures.

I know this is counterintuitive, but with Torah shebiktav I would aim for outright memorization of the text, because the text is immutable, relatively short, and has cantillation notes that make it easier to remember. The oral Torah, especially the Gemara, is too long for this to be realistic, plus it is more about the concepts than the exact words, the order is far more haphazard, and it has no cantillation marks.

I also think that the values of the Chumash, especially breshit, are comprehensible to small children and serve an important role in their moral development. We cannot possibly wait for students to go to Gush to discover the values of tzedaka umishpat ascribed to Avraham, etc. They must be taught these lessons from infancy. The lessons of the Gemara, aggadic portions excepted, are much more abstract and cannot be digested until a later developmental stage.

I agree that Mishnah does little to develop Gemara reading skills. These must be taught separately, and it is crucial that they be taught in an intentional and structured manner. However, I think mishna does give students the knowledge to understand what context the Gemara is working in. I think that when the Gemara cites a mishna students who are familiar with it already have a distinct advantage because they can better discern the mishna's relevance to the discussion at hand. I also think that it protects students from inventing creative svarot that contradict mishnayot not on the current page of Gemara. Finally there are the many masechtot without Gemara that students should be familiar with as part of basic education. Without that, every Gemara that cites zraim, kodashim, or taharot will seem alien to them.

And to Gary Levine, thank you for your interesting comments, and if you are Rabbi Levine who taught mishna in Yavneh Academy when I was in fifth grade, I thank you for that as well.
Subject Author Posted

Why learn Gemara?

Shalom Z. Berger October 05, 2010 07:47AM

Re: Why learn Gemara?

Sarah Lefton October 06, 2010 07:07AM

Re: Why learn Gemara?

Moshe Yeres October 06, 2010 07:11AM

Re: Why learn Gemara?

Jeff Holman October 06, 2010 07:14AM

Why Teach Gemara? Ask your students

David Gleicher October 07, 2010 08:15AM

Re: Why Teach Gemara? Ask your students

Shira Hecht-Koller October 14, 2010 06:16AM

Re: Why Teach Gemara? Ask your students

Abe Katz October 14, 2010 06:50AM

Re: Why learn Gemara?

Anne Gordon October 06, 2010 08:01AM

Re: Why learn Gemara?

Maccabee Avishur October 07, 2010 05:53AM

Why begin teaching Gemara in elementary-school grades?

Michael Poppers October 07, 2010 08:17AM

Re: Why begin teaching Gemara in elementary-school grades?

Ari Kinsberg October 31, 2010 01:08PM

Re: Why begin teaching Gemara in elementary-school grades?

Meir Fachler November 03, 2010 08:46AM

Re: Why begin teaching Gemara in elementary-school grades?

Ari Kinsberg November 03, 2010 12:47PM

Re: Why begin teaching Gemara in elementary-school grades?

Aharon Frazer November 11, 2010 02:05AM

Re: Why begin teaching Gemara in elementary-school grades?

Yisroel Kaminetsky November 15, 2010 12:36AM

Re: Why begin teaching Gemara in elementary-school grades?

Aaron Frazer November 18, 2010 11:41PM

Re: Why begin teaching Gemara in elementary-school grades?

Aaron Ross November 30, 2010 12:55AM

Re: Why begin teaching Gemara in elementary-school grades?

Avraham Norin November 30, 2010 04:48AM

Re: Why begin teaching Gemara in elementary-school grades?

Eli Handel November 15, 2010 12:27AM

Teaching Gemora in Elementary School

Gary Levine November 15, 2010 12:40AM

Re: Teaching Gemora in Elementary School

Stuart Schnee November 19, 2010 03:48AM

Re: Why begin teaching Gemara in elementary-school grades?

Russell Jay Hendel November 22, 2010 12:33AM

Re: Why begin teaching Gemara in elementary-school grades?

Yosef Goldberg December 07, 2010 04:06AM

Re: Why begin teaching Gemara in elementary-school grades?

Russell Jay Hendel December 14, 2010 01:02PM

Re: Why learn Gemara?

Alex Schindler October 07, 2010 08:17AM

Re: Why learn Gemara?

Simon Goulden October 14, 2010 05:46AM

Re: Why teach Gemara?

Jon Levisohn October 09, 2010 11:02PM

Teaching Gemara

Aaron Ross October 09, 2010 11:09PM

Re: Why learn Gemara?

David Brofsky October 09, 2010 11:13PM

Re: Why learn Gemara?

Norman Meskin October 11, 2010 08:55PM

Re: Why learn Gemara?

Yisroel Kaminetsky October 14, 2010 04:58AM

Re: Why learn Gemara?

Kalman Neuman October 14, 2010 06:07AM

Re: Why learn Gemara?

Yeshai Koenigsberg October 20, 2010 01:46PM

Re: Why learn Gemara?

Aliza Libman Baronofsky October 14, 2010 06:18AM

Why teach Gemara?

Aryeh Klapper October 17, 2010 03:40AM

Re: Why learn Gemara?

Debbie Lifschitz October 17, 2010 03:44AM

Re: Why learn Gemara?

Jon A. Levisohn October 17, 2010 03:51AM

Re: Why learn Gemara?

Ken Leitner October 17, 2010 04:38PM

Re: Why learn Gemara?

Daniel Rosen October 18, 2010 03:39AM

Re: Why learn Gemara?

Leah Perl Shollar October 18, 2010 03:41AM

Why is Gemara study only for the Orthodox?

Cecilia Rozen October 18, 2010 04:03AM

Re: Why learn Gemara?

Yosef Goldberg October 18, 2010 04:06AM

Re: Why learn Gemara?

Rafi Eis October 20, 2010 02:56PM

Re: Why learn Gemara?

Barry Kislowicz October 20, 2010 02:57PM

Understanding the Talmud: Beyond Halacha LeMaaseh

Warren Cinamon October 20, 2010 02:58PM

Re: Why learn Gemara?

Elisha Paul October 24, 2010 03:36AM

Rav Lichtenstein on "Why learn Gemara?"

Alan J. Wecker October 24, 2010 06:56AM

Re: Why learn Gemara?

Ari Kinsberg November 23, 2010 06:37AM



Author:

Your Email:


Subject:


Spam prevention:
Please, enter the code that you see below in the input field. This is for blocking bots that try to post this form automatically. If the code is hard to read, then just try to guess it right. If you enter the wrong code, a new image is created and you get another chance to enter it right.
Message:
This is a moderated forum. Your message will remain hidden until it has been approved by a moderator or administrator